Previously, boards with Vee continued the vee right out to the end of the tail. Diff's way of doing it, was to have the vee start maybe six inches to a foot in front of the fin, have it reach a peak right under the fin, then to have the vee ending under the back of the fin and easing out to the end. In essence, it was sort of a "mound" under the fin, and thus a pivot point. McTavish: " The tail vee is only a swelling around the fin, due to the straightish rocker into the fin and the radical little tail kick.
So the rail rocker line is a nice curve due to the vee, get it? Have a look at one closely and you'll see what I mean. The vee has gone by the time you get to the very end. Some people call it the spiral vee. No matter who coined the term, "Spiral Vee" came to mean a mound slightly before and peaking under the fin, and flattening to the tail,with slight concaves on either side, The combo yielded very positive, quick turning boards that went more vertical, snapping in the hook at places like Sunset and Haleiwa.
What made it come to be called "spiral" was an apparent curve in the rail line when overcooked by some shapers- shown in the pic below - Diff's was more subtle or the curve was non-existant , very modern because it was leading edge then - it wasn't really a curve as much as the difference in a constant exiting rail rocker curve, vs the diminishing stringer vee out the tail.
The result was that with that vee gone from behind the fin, the board was free to pivot more quickly and even be turned harder, since the pressure was being released sooner instead off the very tail. Boards rode a few inches shorter than their actual length, and allowed quicker more vertical surfing. Slight bottom contours becoming Vee in front and at the fin then flattening became the standard from on. He was shaping for Hansen when I came on board,in Either in , or , he left Hansen, and went to Surfboards Hawaii, to shape the popular ''Model-A'' model.
Don took his departure very personally. Duane built a stunning Rudyh Choy designed, 42 foot catamaran, in his backyard, just down the street from the shop in Solana Beach. We made a caravan of it, 4 or 5 inland guys, and drove on down the old Beach Bvd to the shop. The rocker is less critical in fish type boards as the flat bottom provides more resistance from a smaller board but also these boards are often ridden flatter on a wave and therefore using the plan shape. In my opinion flat bottoms are like only having one or two gears in a car.
To my mind the importance of concaves, vee bottoms and the like is somewhat overstated. In the past I've made identical boards, one with a concave and one with a flat bottom, and basically I haven't been able to tell the difference. Kelly Slater probably would, but I reckon the average surfer wouldn't. Now I just make all my boards with flat bottom, including my guns, fishes, shortboards, longboards, whatever. They all go fine, and the people that ride them seem to think so. Also from my experience the rocker in relation to a flat bottom doesn't really matter.
So long as the rocker in the blank is half decent the board will go okay. I just tweak the nose and tail a little bit. I'm not saying I've found some magical answer to surfboard design, only that a lot of the received wisdom we rely on is just followed because that's what we've always done.
There is no real mystery to making a board that goes well for the average surfer. So long as it has enough foam to be able to be paddled, is short enough so you can turn it, and has a decent rocker so you're not pushing water then it'll go well. Making boards for pro surfers is another thing as they really can tell the difference and require very specific tweaks to the design. But just remember, the pro surfers are on a completely different level to the rest of us and just because they ride a shape that goes well, it does't mean you're gonna rip on it, or for that matter notice the subtitles of it's design.
May as well keep it simple. Hey Spuddups, Stoked to hear of your experiences. The fact is what you say about about average surfers not recognising the differences in boards is simply not true. Surfboard design is all about the bouyancy and fluid dynamics which dictates the performance of a board in relation to the person using it.
I prefer to use the words 'resistance' and 'release' when talking to my customers. If the board is responding to quickly we need to add resistance, if the board is not responding quickly enough then we need to add more release. It is how we do that which makes talking to your shaper so important. Hi Cory, First of all let me say that I really enjoyed your article. I hope I didn't come across as a bit of a troll. That was not my intention. I must declare that I'm a bit of a flat bottom fan boy; every shaper has to have some aspect of design that they're passionate about!
It's funny, the more surfboards I make, the more I realise how little I know about how they work. My theory is to strip things back to the basics, get a better understanding of these and move forward from there.
A big problem with trying to understand surfboard design is that so much of it is based on raw opinion rather than science. Consider this experiment: A subject is presented with two surfboards. They look identical, but they either have a single difference in design or they don't.
The subject may be told that the boards are identical when they're not , told they're different when they're not , told they're identical when they are , or told they're different when they are. The subject rides the boards and is questioned on their performance. Neither the subject nor the person handing them the boards know the differences. A double blind experiment Ideally we would carry this out at Kelly Slater's surf ranch to control for variations in wave quality.
Perform this experiment with 50 to subjects of varying ages, abilities and size. We're still asking an opinion but we have controlled for the most unreliable aspects. We can mostly control for confirmation bias and such like. This way we can accurately figure out what if any differences various design features make. Obviously an experiment like this would be very expensive to run, which is probably why nobody as far as I know has done it yet.
So we just have to rely on the most unreliable and lowest form of scientific evidence; eyewitness testimony. Fortunately, by sheer weight of public opinion we have come up with surfboards that go a lot better than surfboards did fifty years ago, but what really makes a difference? Do we really know? It is my opinion, that if an experiment as I outlined was carried out, that the results would be surprising, groundbreaking and embarrassing in equal measures.
Hey Spuddups, No I didn't think you were an internet troll. I understand what you are saying and if we were talking about tails shapes I may agree with you. It is that feedback that I rely on and I deal with everybody from beginner level through to CT surfers. The fact is some people like the way a particular design aspect may work for them such as you and 'flat bottoms' but I am confident that the experiment you speak of would only confirm what I already know.
I know many of us shapers suffer from OCD and like myself refine their designs in millimetres. Whilst this is important the overall flow of a curve is equally important and the fact that the glasser and sander affect the design during their work on the board. Personally I love the challenge and I only encourage you to keep shaping and enjoy the stoke! Thanks Cory, something for me to think about for sure. I think I might need to reconsider my position! I'm looking forward to your next article.
Keep up the good work! Hey Spuddups, That's the thing about surfboard design it all about how a single design element is used in conjunction with other design elements. Make no mistake I am always learning and happy to be proven wrong. Thanks for the feedback on the articles and I hope I didn't come off as a dickhead! Not at all Cory. That was a very civil and productive discussion. I'm going to put a concave into my next board to see how it goes! Are you going to keep your current rocker line as the rocker with the curvier rail line due to concave or keep your current rail rocker line and flatten your rocker due to concave?
I want to make a board for solid surf on my forehand. Probably a 6'2" quad with a fairly rounded tail. I really like the feel of quads on my forehand. It's still thrusters for me on my backhand mostly. I reckon I'll keep the rail line the same as usual and flatten the rocker with the concave.
I might lift the tail slightly to compensate though. There's a guy round here who almost exclusively makes quads so I might check out one of his boards and see how he approaches things re concaves.
Hopefully I can make something half decent! Hey Island Bay, that bonzer you were riding the other day just about made my brain explode. I really have to get out more! With that in mindthe V-SKATE has additional late tail rocker, which in concert with the pronounced outline curve and fin positioning, maintains controlled looseness whilst simultaneously preserving the benefits of a flatter rocker.
The bottom shape used has been evolved over time in the Waterskate. Up front is a light roll under the nose facilitating direction changes during full rail turns, and preventing catching whilst coming off the top. This flattens and fades into a full width concavepromoting speedthen into a double concave in the fin area. The advantages of strategically placed concaves are well known. In briefthey create lift friction reduction and thus increased speed.
A spiral vee ensures that potential tracking problems connected with the double concave and associated vee do not occurand also adds a touch of extra tail lift for looseness. In the V-SKATE the thickness distribution is fairly continuous so that even though the thickest point is under the surfers chestthe nose and tail are not wafer thin. The tail in particular is pretty chunky. Heavier surfers obviously need more resistance to lean on through turns.
Soft in the nose and through centrewith a tucked under edge becoming harder towards the tail. Slight deck roll contributes to easy rail to rail transfer. Fins and their positioning are a crucial and often overlooked aspect of design. Happy exploration. Grant Miller.
The V refers to a spiral vee in the tail area. Actually the boards have a lot in commonflat rocker,constant outline planshape curve with an even thickness distribution. Both are really easy to paddle,very stable, loose and fast. Concave bottom with spiral veeperhaps a touch faster than a Waterskate under certain conditions.
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